
I recently wrote an article for Custom PC Magazine entitled “Don’t Fear the Reaper”. In short; it’s an article that generalizes the various types of company attitudes that we come across in our industry.
In general there are companies who take an ass kicking and come back with a vengeance by innovating better products after listening to their customers and the people who schooled them on their mistakes. This is the sign of a strong company, especially when they realize that they need to turn it around before it’s too late.
Companies like this take their licks in stride, like a beat up warrior in the Ultimate Fighting Championship; they lose hard, and then they simply train harder to make a strong comeback. ATi is one such company who has proven that they will take all kinds of feedback and even if it’s negative publicity they will somehow internalize it and turn it around into something positive.
Another company who has surprised me by their relatively “positive” reaction to my writing is Intel. Believe it or not they are trying to make things right by constantly keeping us in the loop of what we should expect in the coming months. I do have some concerns about their roadmap (which I will discuss in the following paragraphs) and only time will tell if these concerns are indeed valid.
Let me be clear to those who read my blog on a regular basis, I like Intel and I think they make great mobility products. In the future they hope to sway our opinions to believe in their entire product line - as far as I’m concerned seeing=believing, and if Intel produces I will call them on it.
If anyone can transport themselves from the stone-age to circa 2006 it’s probably Intel. They have massive resources and their talented team of Israeli engineers has the innate desire to succeed. These engineers are relentless; they are serious ballers who may end up carrying the entire company on their backs.
So here are my concerns about the roadmap – generally speaking: It seems to me that Intel’s new processors are heavily cache dependant. That being said, it would normally take a great deal of silicon to produce a processor with 4 megabytes of cache. You would think this could limit their production output – but then there’s another issue. If they are able to produce the processors there’s the issue of yield. When you start building such a complex processor with a large amount of cache the yields will probably come down significantly. Lastly, by combining a new process with blistering new technology, and you cover it across multiple platforms/product lines it goes back to the analogy that a wise man once said to me: “You can’t make a baby in one month with nine wives”.
I cite Core Duo as an example of a product that experienced delays to get to the channel. I now see a few channel players starting to launch Core Duo notebooks with anticipation to receive new platform parts sometime near the end of May. That’s a far cry from Apple being able to launch Core Duo in January… I must say that Intel was more than eager to get us samples many weeks ago but our challenge was trying to work with the ODMs on platforms. They were lacking chipsets to produce platforms so we could test the sample processors that Intel wanted to provide - it’s like a vicious cycle.
Though this doesn’t seem to bode well if they are trying to eat up share from their competitor, it may not be their goal. Even if they win in performance they may not be able to produce enough to keep the entire market satisfied. Now I could be wrong, and I invite anyone from Intel to post on here, anonymous comments are welcome. I would like to hear your take on yields and potential production issues. Either way I think it’s probably a good strategy for Intel to drop their new procs in limited production in order to gain some “halo effect” across the entire product line.
In the meantime, it looks more and more feasible that AMD will continue to grow strong regardless of Intel’s performance comeback. The fact is the momentum is already there, and in some cases the writing is on the wall. This isn’t necessarily bad for Intel; in fact I would venture to guess it’s good for them because it will keep both companies focused on innovation.
On another crazier note I think AMD will probably announce a couple of surprise OEM deals this year. It seems like the next logical step to me based on a number of facts which I may get into later. Let’s just say I think Toshiba, Sony, and Dell are still in the running to spread their wings a little and bring some green into their lives.
22 blogger comments:
Have you gotten a Conroe for a test? It is going to launch in July according to today's Intel presentation. TG Daily reported that 10% of Intel's units will be Conroe in Q3, and 20% in Q4. I analysed the effect on DELL here.
How will Turion 64 X2 affect the mobile market?
Well, yields or no yields, we do know Core Duo was the first Intel processor out on 65nm, so its ramp was slow. But I dont think there are low numbers of Preslers or Yonahs out there now. They (Intel) said they shipped a few millions of Yonahs out, so if there were issues I think it would have mellowed down now to have only a smaller effect on Woodcrest.
But it does look like Intel is focussing harder on getting Woodcrest out soon, which means they have internally agreed to themselves they are no longer looking forward to producing more Preslers or pentiums.
This may not change equations in either AMDs or Intel's favour, what it will do is even the performance plane more, and give customers a more difficult choice to make, in their buying purchase. Which is great. I think AMD will continue to gain share, only less dramatically.
What will be more important is times like BTS, and Thanksgiving, where it would be important to Intel to ensure that its product line doesnt suck (like last year). So it goes for an early release. All this is with low yields or high yields included, I guess.
Thank you for your analysis Mr. Sood.
Let me tell you that your blog is closely followed in the Yahoo message board for AMD investors, because to help our fellows at the AMD MB, I wrote two detailed articles about the Core µ-architecture, in my blog,
A detailed explanation of the "Core" µ-arch using Ars Technica's "Hannibal" article and Bob Colwells Stanford Lecture, and another summary of Intel's challenges to be overcome for a successful transition to the "Core" product line.
I understand they are a bit long but still I would encourage you to read them because they are in agreement with what you write today and may help you benefit us all by elaborating on them
And congratulations for the good job.
Chicagrafo, from http://chicagrafo.blogspot.com
Rahul, even though you lean towards AMD sometimes, I am sure you like to slap your forehead or fall on the floor laughing when you read the blogs of the two gentlemen here.
Today, both companies are to be liked - AMD for desktop and server, Intel for laptops. That is a point not to be denied. Period
As a very large shareholder of AMD I always appreciate your insight in the industry. Thanks for the great effort!
If your perception is the Yonah ramp was slow, then your perception should be that the conroe ramp is also slow. Based on numbers INTC has supplied conroe should ship around 3Mu in Q3 and increase to about 6Mu in Q4. So far, the Yonah ramp has been faster than the Dothan ramp. I was quite surprised to see Windows based Core Duo notebooks at my local computer retailer in January. It seems many did not notice these systems.
Intel has provide a good glimpse into their 65nm yields and proposed ramp of conroe and yonah relative to other products in the presentation that can be found here:
http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_files/webcast/2006/april/intel/PDF/SAM-42606-morning.pdf
Just so that you guys don't forget another dimension - Intel's factories may be busy running conroe/woodcrest dies already while waiting for Intel marketing to work down excess inventory.
I would have to say that yields may be an issue but a bigger issue is the size of Intel's P4 operations. When they drop Conroe, P4s will be worth less than Celerons. That means ASP issues and even at high volume it results in less money. Until they are 100% Conroe, they will be losing money like crazy.
AMD has become a staple in Best Buy and CompUSA, which means that it will continue until next year at least. Even MS and Google agree on using Opterons for their servers.
The latest 8Way comparison on AnadTech shows Paxville being embarassed, so that maybe why Woodcrest was pushed up, though with 3 new chip families, supply will be tight all around as P4 is eliminated. That may well affect Dell's bottom line.
I agree with your 'halo effect' tag. I think Intel will cherry pick a few chips for the review sites and then squeeze out a small number for OEM's and then say they are "capacity constrained due to high demand." So please wait for our chips and don't buy AMD...pretty please.
Sharikou, Ph. D said...
Have you gotten a Conroe for a test? It is going to launch in July according to today's Intel presentation. TG Daily reported that 10% of Intel's units will be Conroe in Q3, and 20% in Q4. I analysed the effect on DELL here.
I can't comment on any of the above, sorry.
How will Turion 64 X2 affect the mobile market?
It will be awesome for AMD, there are many design wins that we have yet to see.
Thursday, April 27, 2006 1:55:47 PM
Anonymous said...
Well, yields or no yields, we do know Core Duo was the first Intel processor out on 65nm, so its ramp was slow. But I dont think there are low numbers of Preslers or Yonahs out there now. They (Intel) said they shipped a few millions of Yonahs out, so if there were issues I think it would have mellowed down now to have only a smaller effect on Woodcrest.
Yes, but tossing 4 megs of cache into the mix and we're talking about an entirely different animal.
But it does look like Intel is focussing harder on getting Woodcrest out soon, which means they have internally agreed to themselves they are no longer looking forward to producing more Preslers or pentiums.
Yeah, they need something to go against Opteron 2P as fast as possible.
This may not change equations in either AMDs or Intel's favour, what it will do is even the performance plane more, and give customers a more difficult choice to make, in their buying purchase. Which is great. I think AMD will continue to gain share, only less dramatically.
They haven't been gaining dramatically yet on notebooks - but I think we'll see some great growth there, and yes you are correct they will continue to grow.
What will be more important is times like BTS, and Thanksgiving, where it would be important to Intel to ensure that its product line doesnt suck (like last year). So it goes for an early release. All this is with low yields or high yields included, I guess.
Yep.
Thursday, April 27, 2006 2:06:09 PM
Eddie said...
Thank you for your analysis Mr. Sood.
Let me tell you that your blog is closely followed in the Yahoo message board for AMD investors,
I see that in the stats.
And congratulations for the good job.
Thank you.
Today, both companies are to be liked - AMD for desktop and server, Intel for laptops. That is a point not to be denied. Period
Agreed.
Thursday, April 27, 2006 5:43:32 PM
GG said...
As a very large shareholder of AMD I always appreciate your insight in the industry. Thanks for the great effort!
No problem, thanks.
Thursday, April 27, 2006 5:53:36 PM
Anonymous said...
If your perception is the Yonah ramp was slow, then your perception should be that the conroe ramp is also slow.
Yes, it is.
Based on numbers INTC has supplied conroe should ship around 3Mu in Q3 and increase to about 6Mu in Q4. So far, the Yonah ramp has been faster than the Dothan ramp. I was quite surprised to see Windows based Core Duo notebooks at my local computer retailer in January. It seems many did not notice these systems.
That is interesting, actually seems like more than I intially thought, I guess we'll see how it goes.
Intel has provide a good glimpse into their 65nm yields and proposed ramp of conroe and yonah relative to other products in the presentation that can be found here:
http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_files/webcast/2006/april/intel/PDF/SAM-42606-morning.pdf
Thank you!
Thursday, April 27, 2006 10:16:59 PM
Anonymous said...
Just so that you guys don't forget another dimension - Intel's factories may be busy running conroe/woodcrest dies already while waiting for Intel marketing to work down excess inventory.
Naa, I can't see them making this transition company wide so quickly.. They still show support for current products later this year.
Friday, April 28, 2006 8:17:24 AM
TheKhalif said...
I would have to say that yields may be an issue but a bigger issue is the size of Intel's P4 operations. When they drop Conroe, P4s will be worth less than Celerons. That means ASP issues and even at high volume it results in less money. Until they are 100% Conroe, they will be losing money like crazy.
That's very possible.
AMD has become a staple in Best Buy and CompUSA, which means that it will continue until next year at least. Even MS and Google agree on using Opterons for their servers.
Yes it will continue, though AMD still doesn't get the premiums that Intel does in retail - it's getting better.
The latest 8Way comparison on AnadTech shows Paxville being embarassed, so that maybe why Woodcrest was pushed up, though with 3 new chip families, supply will be tight all around as P4 is eliminated. That may well affect Dell's bottom line.
I think Dell is preparing for their new servers..
Friday, April 28, 2006 11:08:53 AM
Anonymous said...
I agree with your 'halo effect' tag. I think Intel will cherry pick a few chips for the review sites and then squeeze out a small number for OEM's and then say they are "capacity constrained due to high demand." So please wait for our chips and don't buy AMD...pretty please.
Yes, I think it's a good strategy.
As far as yield goes, Intel will do what it always does - if one core tests bad, disable it and sell it as a single-core chip. If some cache tests bad, disable it and sell it as a reduced cache version (e.g. Celeron). If some don't meet spec for speed, slow them down and sell as slower clocked CPUs...
It seems in all probability Dell will soon be putting AMD cpus in their line. Good for AMD, and a good one in the long term for Intel. It would however be tough going for Dell, if that happens. HP currently has done quite well, in selling both Opterons and Xeons. Their positioning of both products has been excellent, Opteron for high-end, Xeon for mid and reliability ends. But for Dell, it may get very confusing, the time for them to have jumped ship was long ago.
All in all, Dell needs to rethink a good server strategy for itself, and not put Intel as its be-all and end-all of that strategy. That way, in the long term, it will benefit Intel who will simply be developing better products, that dont have marketing, discounts and labels written all over them. Intel seems to have a platform strategy that is more targeted at retail, and less of Dell. Here HP and others stand to gain. vPro again seems to be sided with OEMS like HP and IBM, and not Dell, since it seems like a parallel brand to Dell's own corporate business PC image.
If Dell makes the shift, AMD stands to gain atleast a 8-9% more market share if that happens, which should not be written off as bad for Intel. We should not ignore the fact that both companies would be doing well.
All in all, coming to the point of fabbing a processor on a 4-meg cache, is that if you make a 40 good ones on a wafer, you repeat the process exactly everywhere, so that you dont lose the skill of making 40 good ones per wafer. There is not much difference in fabricating cache to fabricating logic. Its the die size that counts in the end. The die sizes of Intel's 65nm Core with 4M cache may be smaller than AMD's 90nm x2s, so the yields should be quite good.
If you remember ATI's R580 is in better production than R520, but it is bigger die than R520. Also why has AMD not produced a low-cost dual core, because of die-size considerations of course. I think Intel will face yield issues, but the best way to mitigate them would be do an early launch, create demand, and when yields pick up, produce the normal planned amount, and have a good seasonal ramp. This is the strategy I guess they would have in mind.
I thought cache was a solved problem as far as yields are concerned? (Well, that's with reasonable yields, anyway. All bets are off when you're getting lots of defects all over the place.) Aren't modern caches supposed to include a number of redundant lines so a limited number of defects can be corrected by disabling the affected area?
And, as Anon@2:37pm said, there are always the lower SKUs, just in case redundancy fails.
I’m not sure if the 4 MB cache size is being overplayed here, as don’t forget that only the high end Conroes have 4MB with the low end having 2 MB. The question is, what is the mix of high to low end parts that Intel sell? Intel will have historical figures for that and for yields on large cache CPUs. They may well have deliberately designed the product line for Conroe to take into account these factors. The worst case scenario that I can see is that they may suffer supply constraint for the highest speed parts. Not such a big deal!
Their ability to shift their production completely away from NetBurst to the new architecture will obviously take quite some time. As long as they can make enough new architecture parts for the people ‘in the know’ to buy, they can continue to sell Netburst systems to consumers who aren’t clued up, whilst they ramp the production of the new architecture. Most people who buy and sell PCs in retails aren’t very clued up, so it shouldn’t be too difficult. It does look as if Intel will take a much bigger hit than usual for the cost of discounting their old school parts.
Talking purely about performance, what do you think about the Core processors now? Not just the IDF publicity info is available now, lots of people have claimed to have Conroes and done extensive benchmarking with them; like the folks at Xtreme Forums. And the results are all very consistent with the IDF reports.
Examples of Conroe forum posts:-
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1419314&postcount=32
"new WR in 3DMark01 "Lobby - High" which is incredibly CPU intensive. Previous record was about 270 fps with a P4 up at around 7.1Ghz+..."
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=97593
"Benchmark: 3DMark05 CPU Tests - single threaded application : AMD FX-57 @ 3.6Ghz vs. Intel "Conroe" ES @ 2.66Ghz"
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=97609
"Benchmark: PCMark05 CPU Suite - AMD FX-57 @ 3.6Ghz vs. Intel "Conroe" ES @ 2.66Ghz vs. AMD X2 4400+ @ 2.66Ghz"
----
And it is not just the Conroe, is it? Even the Core Duo, a mobile chip is showing superb results.
http://www.vr-zone.com/?i=3561 ("Intel Yonah 3.4GHz breaks 19k 3D Mark 05 Air-cooled CrossFire!!!")
If the Core Duo can do it, the Conroe can do better, right?
synthetic not real
“You can’t make a baby in one month with nine wives”.
Did you ever try to prove it?
My brother told me the mother of his girlfriend told him...
That's no prove!
herman ;-)
Aren't modern caches supposed to include a number of redundant lines so a limited number of defects can be corrected by disabling the affected area?
Response:
Redundancy is for low amounts of fails... and redundant memories takes up space. More test time, more space taken up, less dies per wafer, less chips, more expensive to make.
I agree that the 4MB Cache is a big concern regarding yield when you're considering defect density on the Silicon wafer.
This blog is great! Thanks Rahul... :)
Rahul, didn't know where else to leave this but big congrats and extra thanks go out to you for supporting Formula 1 and Scott Speed in particular....
Way to go.....!
I'll definitely be looking at your products next purchase I make....
TS (American F1 fan)
Rahul, How rapidly do you think ATI will gain back share from Nvidia, and in which segments specifically? Would you say that the timing of market share shift is closely tied to when systems (including gaming systems) get re-designed for AM2 and Conroe processors? And if yes, when does that begin happening?
Intel (Smith-virus) vs AMD (Neo-antivirus) ? ;)
Rahul,
Are you going to sell Conroe bases systems when they come out?
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